Harry Potter: Lazy Slacker?

[lightofdaye]

At the moment I've been listening to Half blood Prince audio book, read by Stephen Fry on my mp3 player and it's very good, aside from poor Stephen having to attempt a variety of different accents and has to go especially far in the case of women. (poor Tonks and Demezla now have very thick accents) I've actually appreciated the story a bit more this time through. Still my favourite chapter is still the very first one with the poor prime minister.



I actually notice more stuff in the audio version. I think I have a terrible habit of skimming when I'm reading a book so I miss details but one of the things I did notice is that Hermione totally gets huffy when people hit on Ron even before he starts smooching on Lavender, never seen that before. I mean Ron acting up is totally obvious but Hermione was more subtle, lol.

But the other thing that seems endemic to the stuff is Harry succeeding purely by taking the easy way out and standing on the back of others work. This is obvious with the Prince's potions book and also when he gets the real potion from Slughorn using lucky potion.

I think I first noticed some of this when listening to the description of Voldemort getting the horcrux information out of Slughorn and Harry realising He must have buttered up /slughorn for ages whereas Harry gets the same effect with no effort at all: just see the luck potion and bam. Job done.

Likewise in potions he gets top marks for following Snape's revised instructions and yet Snape presumably compiled those changes to the net through trial and error and a great deal of work. Chance hands Harry the book and he uses at no effort to himself. (The book does point out that he doesn't understand the concepts involved but he gets through it by nerve and cheek. Admirable qualities we are to assume.)

So we're in the odd position where the villains of the piece apparently rose from humble origins through ingenuity and hard work. And the hero... gets it handed to him by the plot?


The other thing that comes to mind, is Hermione's rejection of the half-blood prince's instruction while adhering strictly to the 'official instructions'. Now its admirable not the crib someone else's work. But on the other hand this leads us the impression that Hermione gets to be 'the smartest witch in her age' by reading alot and slavish following instructions. Apparently that's all that is required not any great originality of though or adaptability or smartness of her own. Just read the books, memorise them and you get to be great. I mean this should stand her well on exam papers but she never seems to have an problem with the practical side either, so again read enough and apparently you cast spells with ease


I seem to have gone a little off track and more stream of consciousness here. Still thoughts?

Comments

[tamlane.livejournal.com]

Interesting thought about Felix. I don't think it was hard work that got Tom the information he wanted. I think it was his ease at manipulating others. I'm not sure that Harry — being a noble, fairly straightforward guy and not a sociopath — would have been capable of the manipulative finesse necessary to worm the memory out of Slughorn. By introducing Felix, JKR gives him the push he needs and simultaneously allows us to conveniently overlook any disingenuousness on our hero's part.

I'm re-reading the first book now, and it has struck me how important theory is to the practice of magic. In the beginning of chapter 8, for example, Harry mentions how they had to take a bunch of 'complicated notes' before they could get started in Transfiguration. Potions is different; Snape says it himself the first class. 'No foolish wand-waving'... he calls it a 'subtle science and exact art'. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about Hermione, but it makes sense to me that she would have trouble with something that isn't so cut-and-dry.

[lightofdaye]

I see what you're saying about Tom. I guess Hard work might have been the wrong expression but it was well, it was the result the application of his own skills.

Harry admitted he also has lots of experience getting information out of people (though usually just nagging people who he's already on good terms with) so I figure what he should have doing is finding out that he can play Slughorn's game a bit just to get the memory. But you're right we don't want to get the impression he's turning into Voldemort.


As to Hermoine, i'm not sure what I was trying to say, just that she's depicted as being very hide-bound, we must do as the textbook says, and extensive reading and memorisation is good, it doesn't explain how Hermione is as competent as she is. Since to get to be really advanced I feel you need more than that. A certain ability for critical thought and originality. She should have more trouble with some that isn't cut-and-dry, but she's never really depicted as doing so. (aside from flying, of which there is one lesson only, and divination, which is total rubbish)

[tamlane.livejournal.com]

She should have more trouble with some that isn't cut-and-dry, but she's never really depicted as doing so.

She is in the very scene you reference, of course, in which following instructions clearly isn't enough. She doesn't seem as proficient in DADA, either, which is a subject that I imagine requires some raw instinct (and explains why Harry is unusually proficient at it).


But you're right we don't want to get the impression he's turning into Voldemort.

Ah, but he would have been so much more interesting to me if he'd been at least a little more Marauders-like. Though that wouldn't have worked with the plot, I suppose.

[nutmeg-44.livejournal.com]

I've always thought that about Harry. He literally 'winged' almost everything and gets exalted as a hero.

I agree with tamlane about Hermione, though. While she's not my favourite character, she definitely did the theory work that would enable her to excel in the courses that are more theory-based.

I do love rereading the series too. I read it every year - it's my annual pilgrimage to Hogwarts - and you do notice little things about the characters.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

NOT everything.

He always did his work for DADA (except when Umbridge taught).

and to master the Patronus he did have several lessons about it and struggled till he got it right.

and we have read several times in the books about him doing his homework (in PoA during the summer, having to stay up late to finish a drawing of a bowtruckle or something like that)

my two cents.

(I know not everyone likes Harry, and that's fine. But it irks me when people assume he Didn't do ANYTHING ever himself just because he had loads of help in a lot of stuff)

[nutmeg-44.livejournal.com]

I know he did that stuff. Don't get me wrong, I still love Harry but there was A LOT of luck sprinkled in there. He was a very good teacher for the DA and he had a knack for DADA but the luck man, the luck.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

no, I know. he was definitely super lucky in a lot of stuff.

it was just the way "he literally 'winged' almost everything and gets exalted as a hero" sounded like "he didn't do ANYTHING himself, only got help from others and he doesn't deserve praise"

instead of just "he's so lucky to have survived half the stuff"

[nutmeg-44.livejournal.com]

Lol no. The death-defying stuff definitely deserves praise but he winged it a lot.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

well yeah a bit.

but that's a bit of life too isn't it?

haven't we all heard of those terrible accidents and how this person/house/building,etc got killed/blown up but the person/house/building next to it not a scratch?

plus he's the hero in a child/teen story. of course he was going to make it. (specially with magic involved)

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

although if we're going to talk about luck- I personally think Crabbe and Goyle won the luck-jackpot.
cause otherwise I don't see How they made it through 7 years of Hogwarts education.

[nutmeg-44.livejournal.com]

Haha, definitely Crabbe and Goyle. Someone reeeeallly wanted them to finish school.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

or die dramatically before they did it. (well at least one of them did)

[lightofdaye]

I guess it part of the books point that love and self-sacrifice and so on are the really important things. Otherwise Hermione would be the hero.

(And self-sacrifice and bravery also seem to be Ron's redeeming features at least in early books)

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

Well I personally think all three members of the trio are Heroes/Heroines in their own way- regardless of how much spotlight they got.

I mean at the end of the day, we been shown that the trio worked best as a unit than separate. (NOT counting the final duel between hp vs voldemort-- that's the hero vs villain showdown of any fantasy book)

and personally I like that love and self-sacrifice are praised so much (well love more so than self-sacrifice because that one could get overboard *ex. The hunger games*) society needs more of that in our age of cynism and bleakness-outlook. :)

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

On Harry:

I personally think it's a bit of Both.
Yes, Harry got lucky and breezed through a lot of stuff-- but he did had to work hard at other stuff. (ex. learning the patronus) and we have seen him put actual work (the mentions of him doing his homework by himself in PoA, doing the work for care of magical creatures,etc,etc)

and yeah, he has some natural talents (ex. Flying, good fighter) - but doesn't everyone? (although-I'm sure having to run away from dudley and his gang throughout his childhood probably contributed to harry's quick reflexes)

as for nerve and cheek- well those developed as a result of his raised by the dursleys situation so why wouldn't the be predominant.

(but I personally think the nerve/cheek of harry are well balanced- sometimes they work (to save the day and stand up to antagonists/stand his grown) sometimes they dont (facing up umbridge and getting into so many detentions)


in regard to the potion book& slughorn-

I never really understood the whole Harry suddenly using the potion book to be better in class. I mean, he hates potions (because of snape), he doesn't really care to be top of the class (except maybe DADA) and at the beginning of the school year he thinks Slughorn is creepy and avoids him. I understand him trying to do everything possible to be in slughorn good graces after Dumbledore told him how imperative it was he got the memory, but not before.
(that's why I think he resorted to felix felicis- Harry can't manipulate someone as easily as Malfoy or Tom Riddle could-- so he had to find some other way to secure getting the memory- and felix felicis was 100 fool proof solution-so why not use it?)

but I never got the WHY using the book and getting hermione all pissed off pre-needing to get the memory from slughorn.
(I mean Harry always HATED getting praise for something he thinks he doesn't deserve- like in PS- with the whole Boy-Who-Lived "but i dont even remember doing that stuff!" so WHY would he suddenly do a 180 and use the book to be the best at potions? (PRE-needing the memory)

I personally can't figure it out- other than Rowling pulling a "I need character to go from point A to point B by any means necessary" aka plot trumps character development.

sidepoint- I also don't think Tom Riddle be a slick manipulative charmer be much ingenuity- but to each their own.

on Hermione

I personally think Hermione DOES understand/disect much of the stuff she reads. Ex. the logic puzzle in PS, and figuring out Prof. Lupin was a werewolf.

but as we seen her grown up there have been situations where just reading the stuff hasn't been enough- the prime example is in PoA with: A. her taking too many classes and having to resort to use the time turner to keep up with everything. B. Not being at her best in both Divination and DADA- divinations both because she doesn't believe in the subject & doing the whole "seeing beyond what's infront of you/explainable" and DADA with things like the practical exams (also with that little gem in PS of hermione having to get rid of the devil snare and being all like "there's no wood for the fire!")

and having to learn the Patronus definitely wasn't "spell it with ease" she struggled with it when Harry taught it to the DA and she struggled with it in a life-or-death situation (it was either in the DoM or in ministry in DH- don't remember)

so yeah those are my thoughts :)

[lightofdaye]

That's some good points Nevra. I'd forgotten about some of the logical stuff Hermione had done.

And I agree everything about the Half-Blood Prince book and mysterry was pretty much the weakest part of the book. Though the relationship drama sort of gave it a run for its money.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

I read the books so many times that pulling little details out into the light is so much fun. :P

yeah. HBP.
the only reason why I liked HBP was because of more quidditch, the memory quest, more dumbledore and ron and hermione finally being pushed towards couple-ness (albeit Horribly executed with the whole ginny tells ron about hermione/viktor ron gets jealous hermione too and PETTY PETTY FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT *eye roll*)

and we got More luna & harry/luna friendship.

oh! and tonks and remus (who okay i didn't saw comming and in retrospect the way they got together wasn't the best plotted- even if I can totally see it as realistic) and bill & fleur (YAY Fleur being fleshed out!)

and the "we'll go with you- don't argue-it's been settled since the beginning" ron and hermione to harry on his quest (YAY TRIO FRIENDSHIP!!)

and okay I also found romilda and cormac so stereotypically hilarious

but yeah. not the biggest fan of it otherwise.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

on the audiobook themselves.

while I love stephen fry and he has a very animated, versatile voice-- his female voice are cringeworthy.

and I personally Never understood why for audiobooks they can't get two narrators- one man for all the male voices and one female for all the female voices.

I mean come on, how hard is it? Harry Potter/LotR have LOADS of money- surely they can hire a second narrator so as to make it more realistic/entretaining?
(I mean they did do this stuff back then, right? with radio plays? so why can't audiobooks be like that?)

[lightofdaye]

Maybe just a matter of cost. I mean Harry Potter makes a lot of money but they're not going to put more money into audio books than they think they're going to get out of it. And i can;t imagine there's that big a market for them.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

I dunno-- if people can spend money on multiple versions of the harry potter books with different covers (like the ones comming up for paperback) I'm sure they would be willing to spend in more vocally diverse audiobooks.

I would.

and you might be right about there being a smaller market for them- but i think that's sort of changing a little? (I mean I heard of this infernal devices books being narrated by a relatively well known actor- so that adds a bit of appeal)

[luna-plath.livejournal.com]

On Hermione
In my experience, the people who read the most/memorize the most are generally the people who do the best in school, whether they have any natural intelligence or not. This would apply to the reading/writing/theoretical part of Hogwarts classes the most. As for the hands-on aspect, I think Hermione performs spells well because she makes sure that she understands the instructions before attempting the spell, and is hard working enough to practice over and over until she gets it right. Being good at following instructions isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I think Hermione is meant to show us that. Her other qualities make her an intelligent person as well, one of those qualities being her ability to think logically and reason out problems. That may be a key difference between Hermione and some of her other classmates and it's probably why she performs so well in school.

On Harry
You know that I love Harry, but I think he does get by with luck and nerve over hard work quite often. However, we see times when this does not work out in his favor, even with the Half-Blood Prince. Harry uses the sectemsempra spell on Draco, hoping he'll get lucky and be able to defend himself with it, only to reap horrifying results. There are plenty of examples where Harry's fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants way of dealing with things gets him in trouble or causes problems, so I wouldn't say he gets off so easily. We see this in the Department of Mysteries where his luck/nerve run out and Sirius dies.

I think Harry is reckless, but I don't think that means he hasn't "earned" the things he's accomplished. Some of the risks he takes are out of ambition, and real ambition doesn't care about the dishonesty of using someone else's work or the implications of lying to get something that could help a lot of people. These events just show that, in general, Harry is willing to ignore the rules to get what he wants, things that characters like Hermione wouldn't necessarily condone. This is why I consider Harry to be a gray character and it's also why I get frustrated when writers portray him as the perfect example of morality.

Back to learning. I think that Harry was content to use the Prince's work because he simply wasn't as interested in book learning/the theory aspect of magic. As we see with Dumbledore's Army, he definitely prefers hands-on learning, i.e. the "foolish wand waving" like learning a Patronus.

[lightofdaye]

Interesting thoughts, Luna. I hadn't considered a lot of that. I guess its because as Hermione isn't the main character that we don't see a lot of the work she puts into it. It's just that she;s consistent achieving practical stuff like transfiguration or apparition a lot more quickly than anyone. So does just no one else doing the reading?

Good thoughts about Harry. He's definitely not a shining paragon of virtue. It's one of the things I remember noticing about the end of OotP, harry very explicitly motivated by revenge. Not justice or anything. Revenge. That's not traditionally a good guy thing, especially in kid's stuff.

I think maybe the difference between Harry and Hermione is that Harry excels at something he's good at and interested in (DADA) while not putting effort into other things, while Hermione tries to excel around the board. (and i think, she only really landed an E in DADA because she couldn't be as good as Harry, not that she really ever seemed weak at in previous books. Except the boggart and that was because she's never practised on a real one before)

Though speaking of Harry's exam results. He gets good grades in pretty much everything. The exceptions being an A in Astronomy and P in History of Magic, both subject exams which were disrupted for him. the only one he failed fair and square was Divination. Which is a dodgy subject to start with.

[luna-plath.livejournal.com]

You know I wouldn't be surprised if very few people (apart from some Ravenclaws) did the reading for school. I'm sure that, especially for subjects like History of Magic or Transfiguration, the reading is probably very dry. This is something I've even noticed at my university. I was in a biology class this spring and several students who were bio majors found the textbook too difficult and never read it, even when preparing for tests.

Good point about Harry being motivated by revenge. That may not be a hero-type thing, but it's realistic. I would expect someone in his position to feel that way. And when it comes to Harry's schooling I think he definitely failed to apply himself and use his full potential. His grades are alright without having to work too hard so he gets by with that, which is understandable when you consider that he's spending lots of time dealing with Voldemort and playing Quidditch, both of which seem more important to him than school. He just has different priorities than Hermione, who enjoys learning for learning's sake.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

but isn't one of hufflepuff traits "hard-working"?

I'm sure doing the material for Binns/taking notes in his class probably counts as hardworking hufflepuff.

and I personally think earlierbook!harry applied himself a bit more than laterbooks!harry- or when he knew something was at stake. (like I'm sure he really applied himself to get the necessary OWLS to be able to pursue auror career)